Metagame SV Ubers UU Metagame Discussion (Ditto, Lunala, Iron Treads and Terapagos Dropped)

That is what we wish for! But to be honest we don't know how stable the metagame will be in future generations. Especially with a limited dex, and at the beginning with no bans and/or no legendary Pokemon outside of the cover legendaries (if it works like scarlet and violet with no home compatibility for a long time)
i mean, some of the lower tiers can't properly exist until months after the start of a gen and they still manage fine, so i think we can manage if the pickings turn out slim at the beginning of a generation
 
dozo's been here for like a day, give it time. i'm sure a bunch of people will pick it up since it's, you know, the only zacian answer

well, ok, there are other "answers", but those are answers with an ellipsis at the end. dondozo has an exclamation point
Yeah, this concept of Zacian + Gothitelle is something I'm trying specifically for Dozo / Garganacl. And you know what, it actually works quite well if you fish up the correct MU. Here's a mid / low ladder replay showing this concept the best IMO: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2003648414

The core of Gothitelle / Zacian / Palafin seems very strong to me in theory. Palafin can lure Dozo in, Flip turn out, and Gothitelle gets easy entry to just Snipe Dozo or some other mons like Tera Water Garganacl. The more defensive the playstyle, the better Gothitelle will perform, and I think it will eventually get banned once this is explored more in tours and the like.

Unfortunately, I don't think the rest of the team is up to snuff, largely as I was running a more defensivish core over something more suited for this team (probably some form of HO). I'm hoping some better players than I can push this Gothitelle x Zacian concept much further. I certainly believe Palafin is the way to go for this as well as a partner due to sharing several answers with Zacian.
 
Trapping is super underrated rn imho. Gothitelle in particular is really great to remove annoying mons like Dozo bliss and even arceus poison with support. Duggy also is great at trapping mons like dialga and non scarf chiyu. Trappig needs to be looked at and explored more imho.
 
So a couple disclaimers for the trapping convo: I have not tried gothitelle out and I am not exactly the best player out there; I’m hovering 1200s.

Dugtrio has two problems: One is that it is at 372 speed. If it were a couple points faster I could see a legitimate niche but in practice it was dead weight. Dug only gets to dent Arceus (except the grass one, no aerial ace anymore) 50% of the time. The speed tier also misses out on several other top meta threats Dug would be happy to chip down or clean up.

Because Dug is basically forced to run max speed, this brings up its second problem: 299 attack. If you aren’t running CB I hope you have a way to get some damage off. You quite frankly don’t have the opportunity to set up a swords dance unless you shed tail into it, which ok could work I suppose but how likely is that scenario?

Although it is funny to think about what would be a better trapper. Dug could trap plenty if it wanted to but I don’t know how it could in practice.

also Arena Trap test in OU when?
 

Sawkasm

formerly z3ll1
I joined the stall war…on the side of stall (except not actually I just thought a Gira Dozo core was cracked). Anyway, here is my attempt at a stall team for UUbers, which I think is better thanks to the three new drops.

:Arceus-Dark: :Giratina: :Dondozo: :Tornadus-Therian: :Blissey: :Alomomola:

Click for paste

:Arceus-Dark:
You know…I was really hoping for perish trap because I 1000% would’ve done that. Or toxic refresh. But Arc gets neither so I had to settle with CM Offensive. Judgement, CM, Recover, coverage last. Flame is for Mag and Corviknight but if you want Ice Beam or TBolt the option exists. Tera dark because let’s be honest you’re probably not gonna Tera with this guy.

:Giratina:
Rilla…who? Max HP Max Defense Impish with WillO to punish physical threats that would cause problems for the bros in the back, Rest for longevity, DTail for phazing. This set above has both DTail and Roar, however the you can choose one depending on who you want to take damage with the last slot being hex or defog. Alternatively, keep both to punish Tera fairy set up…I wish I had a replay.

:Dondozo:
Unlike with previous unaware mon Quag, Dozo can actually handle Baxcalibur well and still be a Zacian check. 248 HP Max Def Impish, of course, Liquidation, Curse, RestTalk, Tera dragon, you know and love him. Blanks common physical threats, tanks a lot thanks to its 503 HP stat, allowing to rest and pivot in an absolute emergency.

:Tornadus-Therian:
Something not holding boots? Wild. Max HP Max Speed timid with Bleakwind, Icy Wind, Knock, U holding an assault vest with Tera electric. I stole this torn set but it hitting 375 is an amazing attribute in this metagame. It outspeeds all arceus formes, PalkO, and speed ties Cyclizar. Even if you lose that speed tie, the worst thing it can do to you is knock off while you practically force a switch, maybe get a knock of your own off.

:Blissey:
Our lovable healer is back and she’s here to take on special threats. Despite that, curiously enough, she’s Max HP Max Def Bold. She certainly can afford to be SpDef invested but not folding to physical pivots is a good enough investment. Toss, Rocks, TWave, Softboiled, Tera ghost, holding Boots. If I had a fifth slot heal bell, but alas.

:Alomomola:
Wish support. That’s it. It pivots too, but being a reliable source of HP keeps the stall team going round so…Max HP Max Def Bold, holding boots, you know the drill. Tera Flying for the meme because most of the time you’re not clicking Tera on here either. If you want a more serious Tera, poison or dark would probably be your best bet. Scald, wish, protect, flip.

Team options:

One that sticks out to me is making Giratina double status with Hex, making blissey heal bell, and slotting Roar over coverage on arceus. Another option is switching out Arceus for a fast breaker like Chi Yu or Zacian but that would take away from the point of a team structure like this in my opinion.

Play style:

I won’t beat around the bush: it’s stall. There will be switching, there will be predicts, there will be health and status management. But if you’re patient and slow the turns down, you can force the opponent to misplay and take advantage of the chip damage. 80% of the time you will lead torn as a pivot or to immediately get rid of an item. Blissey and Arceus are good leads too. With Blissey, find a free turn to get rocks up and you’re in business.

Weaknesses:

:Espathra:
Do not let this thing calm mind twice or its GGs. You trade a lot of HP with one but you can recover it off if necessary.

Knock Off:
In a meta with hazards everywhere, it’s prudent to keep your boots on. Mons like Blissey can afford to lose their boots if there’s 3 spikes on the ground, but only once. Switch reliant teams like not taking hazards, keep that in mind.

:Palkia-Origin:
Spatial Rend is a fun move. But you know what else is a fun move? Scale Shot. Which it gets. Doesn’t even matter if it’s min atk, it’ll still chunk blissey down if it gets more than 2-3 hits.

:Houndstone:
Last Respects is a move that starts with 50 base power and scales up with…wait Last Respects is banned? LETS GOOOOOOO HOUNDSTONE FOR RUBERS RIP BOZO

Stall/Mirror Match:
I mean…you chose stall. When you play stall against stall, it becomes a slugfest. Unfortunately toxic isn’t slotted in on any of these mons so of the opposing team has it and you don’t it’ll become 1000% more difficult. But expect to sit in for a while if this is the case. Don’t be afraid to throw Gira in for that added pressure.

Overall this team I think is pretty solid but I think can be better, what do y'all think? How can a structure like this be improved? Will stall in general take off?
I'm a huge fan of monoceus (cm taunt recover judgment)on stall, it contributes a lot to solving the mirror match.
 
has anyone experimented with dugtrio or gothitelle? trapping seems like it might be a potent tool in the right hands, but i can't think of very many mons that dugtrio can even revenge-kill here, and trick gothitelle doesn't work against some very common stuff like arceus and palkia-origin
Both can be strong with all the stall poping to catch dozo in the goth side or trap/force tera ghost on blissey in duggy side. A core like Horse Palkia + Duggy can do big dmg on stall if duggy can catch the blob
 
anyone who knows me from the ou forum was probably expecting one of these sooner or later
and yes, i did use the exact same thing for mandibuzz as i did for this month's ou the team, that was a mistake but i decided to leave it
View attachment 576348
Big miss opportunity lost on Rilla + Sneasler with not using "Prepare for trouble" and "and make it double" classic

Outside of that Amazing as always DaddyBylgax
 
Big miss opportunity lost on Rilla + Sneasler with not using "Prepare for trouble" and "and make it double" classic

Outside of that Amazing as always DaddyBylgax
i mean, it's not like rilla/sneasler is gonna be going away anytime soon. even with giratina absolutely destroying that core, it's still quite powerful. i'll likely use that joke for next month's
 
Survey responses:

:Zacian: 1

This mon isn't that good. Needs Intrepid sword to be a defining threat, which isn't always going to be on the table. When Intrepid sword isn't in play, its threat level falls drastically. Also Play Rough is a shitty main STAB move that's arguably worse than Zama's CC. Corv and Dozo destroy this guy, as do multiple Arceus forms (particularly with Tera).

:Palkia-Origin: 4

Broken as shit. No switch-ins or checks outside of maybe Arceus-Grass. You can try playing around it with fake checks like Magearna and Arceus-Grass, but its speed and power are otherwise too much AND it resist the most splashable priority user in the tier as well on top of that.

:Arceus-Fire: / :Arceus-Poison: 4

The Arceus forms are the most broken Pokemon in the tier from my experience. Their versatility with multiple different setup moves such as Dragon Dance, SD, Calm Mind, etc. with several additional tools like Taunt & a billion different coverage moves make them incredibly difficult to answer. Further augmenting this is their 120 / 120 / 120 bulk with Recover & Extreme Speed, making revenge killing them noticeably harder.

:Gothitelle: / :Dugtrio: 2
I see these being more broken over time, but currently, these Pokemon are extremely bad next to many of the Uber level threats in the tier. Gothitelle is really good into the likes of Dozo and Garg, but otherwise quite poor.

:Cyclizar: 1
I am a Shed Tail Enjoyer.
 
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survey responses:

:zacian: 4. it was a 5 last month for sure, but we got some fresh counterplay to it now. still problematic in my opinion; i don't think what we have right now is strictly enough to make zacian bearable. dozo is the best answer to it by a country mile, but (ironically for a water-type) it's not very splashable. every time i fight this mon i die a little inside

:palkia-origin: 2. it's undeniably strong with very few reliable switch-ins, and i wouldn't oppose looking at it in the future if it continues being as dominant as it is, but i've personally never found it overbearing. it has a kinda rough time against magearna and a very rough time against zacian, various arceus forms give it various different amounts of trouble, and blissey just does blissey things to it (yes, scale shot exists, but so does tera fairy). post-zacian, i could see it becoming problematic, but right now i think we have other things to focus on (namely zacian)

:arceus-fire: 2. another extremely potent mon, but i think it's a necessary evil right now because of its zacian-checking potential. remember that "broken checks broken" is allowed here

:arceus-poison: 1. probably the most versatile of the currently allowed arceus forms, but i don't think it's overpowered because of it. i think it's excellent glue for a lot of teams and its ability to reliably switch into zacian and sneasler is pretty valuable, even though sneasler is starting to fall off with gira-a around. i think getting rid of it would create more problems than it would solve

:gothitelle: 1. shadow tag is strong but the mons are just so bad in this meta. it's an absolute motherfucker if you're running stall and you don't play perfectly, but trick gothitelle can be dispatched pretty easily if you've got a ghost or voltturner out and an arceus form or palkia-origin in the back. even the stall team i use has never really struggled too hard with shadow tag because whenever i see gothitelle i just try to have arceus and gira-a on the field as often as possible and that just kinda works

:dugtrio: 1. all the same problems shadow tag has, but with more mons that are immune to it and attached to a mon with even less utility. dugtrio just isn't strong enough to make full use of its trapping potential. i mean, i could see it trapping and killing or heavily damaging a lot of zacian checks, but the fact that this strategy hasn't cropped up much is kind of telling

:cyclizar: 3. shed tail is still stupid and it enables a lot of dumb setup stuff, but between dialga with roar, gira-a with whirlwind also roar (whoops, i mixed it up because gira-a gets defog and i use dragon tail on it instead of roar), dondozo with unaware, and zacian outspeeding cyclizar, i think it has enough counterplay to wait a little bit longer before taking action
 
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survey stuff woo

:zacian: 3 - I feel conflicted about this guy. On the one hand, yeah, he's got new checks from this drop, mainly Corv and Dozo. However...do these actually solve the issue? I feel like they're too vulnerable to most good teammates to be worth using on a lot of teams. Like, if you go Zacian + Palkia-O, which was already one of the most reliable offense cores out there, then you just beat the Zacian checks. Aside from that, it's the same old soft checks that entirely depend on the Tera Type and coverage. On the fence of moving to a 4, but I'll stick with a 3.
:palkia-origin: 2 - This mon is pretty heavily exacerbated by other brokens imo. Yes, very strong wallbreaker, but we have Magearna and plenty of super fast mons to check it reliably. You can slap any of a scarf dragon, Magearna, SpDef Dialga, or a good Tera on your team to deal with this guy. The issue, of course, is when you're pairing it with stuff like Zacian that removes these checks. Basically, just have a good banlist and this shouldn't be an issue.
:arceus-fire: 1 - I dunno man. Giratina just fucking murders this thing in every way possible. It is not even funny. All the old checks are here, too; Palafin, opposing Fireceus, Roar, etc. Pretty good, but not at all broken.
:arceus-poison: 1 - lol
:dugtrio: :gothitelle: 5 - I would like to emphasize that I do not believe these mons are broken. Of course they aren't. Dugtrio is shit tier and Gothitelle can't do much into a lot of common balances thanks to Giratina. However, I believe that there is no tier where these abilities should be legal. Once the meta stabilizes further, people WILL find ways to break these abilities whether you like it or not. Imagine, for a moment, DLC2 UUbers. Gothitelle comes in, Tera Fires, and traps your Solgaleo. What do you do? Just sit there and die? Because you don't have much of a choice before it sets up to +4 and kills your entire team from there. Again, these mons are not broken in their current state. But I must emphasize, there is a reason every good tier has banned Shadow Tag.
:orthworm: 4 - I feel like this is the main enabler of stupid brainless offense in this meta. With Cyclizar able to set it up so easily for anyone, I think it heavily swings the game in the offensive team's favor if you don't prevent it. Doesn't help that Cyclizar has a lot of really good switch-in opportunities with Volt Switch Magearna and Flip Turn Palafin in the meta. Not much more to say.

:arceus-electric: 3 - Y'know, with the Giratina drop, I could honestly see it. It'd prob be the best Arceus form, and I'm still hesitant about saying anything confidently, but it would def be more balanced than it used to be, that's for sure.
:arceus-flying: 2 - Less sympathetic here. Flying STAB is just so, so good, and it blows up steels with Fire or Focus Blast. Rocks weak, yeah, but unless you're running Garganacl, have fun.
:shaymin-sky: 1 - do i even need to type anything here

:houndstone: 5 - Last Respects is a bullshit broken move that has no place in any metagame. We all know that, right? Glad we can agree.
Comments - #BANTERA
 

njnp

We don't play this game to lose.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
My thoughts as a council member.

:zacian: 4 - Even with the addition of Dondozo and Corviknight this pokemon warps offensive builds and can completely demolish defensive archetypes lacking a Dondozo. It forces you to generally run a scarfed with a strong water move to revenge it or hope you can out muscle it with an Arceus Fire. It also still is impossible to 1 shot and remains to be one of the best breakers and sweepers in the tier.


:palkia-origin: 5 - This is the scariest pokemon in the tier. It’s no surprise the slower and bulkier the tier became the better it got, gaining Dondozo and Giratina as potential victims to its powerful attacks has been a big plus for it. It only has 2 flaws. Palkia-O has to depend on moves that don’t have 100% accuracy to win games but that’s kinda neutralized by the fact Spacial Rend can crit. The second flaw it has is always being weak to hazards so it you position yourself correctly you may be able to limit its opportunities to get an attack off. It really has no hard answers to its movepool unless you run tera fairy water absorbers which aren’t even viable in the tier unfortunately. It has access to scale shot which late game can turn it into a sweeper and further negates the possibly of something like blissey being a safe switch in. It forces you to run Dragapult, Zacian, or something like scarf tera blast fairy chi yu just to revenge I think the tier would much more pleasant without it.

:arceus-fire: 4 - This is the best Arceus right now. People keep bringing up Giratina as a measure for it while it simply sd’s flare blitz and gets roared out, its able to come back in later recover and do the same thing. The reality is you need Giratina with something that forces it to tera normal where wisp becomes a possibility otherwise you’re just stalling for time while it can eventually just late game sweep you with flare blitz and extreme speed. Only reason it isn’t a 5 is cause of Dondozo and rock weakness.

:arceus-poison: 3 - All the drops were big blows to it.

:dugtrio: :gothitelle: 3/5 - Goth is never healthy. It’s slowly showing that it is unhealthy in the tier which should come as no surprise. Giving it a 5 now as I doubt people stop using it once they see how good it is and are already pulling off ridiculous cheese strats with it. Dugtrio gets a 3 it’s dumb as well but as dumb.

:orthworm: - 2 - It’s fine right now, its a dumb move it times especially for balance to deal with but hey the game is the game.

(Wrote this on the fly on mobile sorry for errors)
 

Leo Justice

Ubers UU leader
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Survey is out, time to explain my opinion even though nobody asked


:zacian: 2 - This Mon has had it's ups and downs, but all three drops kind of make Zacian's life harder. Giratina With tera can take on Zacian, Corviknight makes non tera fire Zacian mediocre, and Dondozo just shuts it down. I feel like there are other things that we should look into before deciding if to ban Zacian or not.

:palkia-origin: 4 - Speaking or things that we should look into, Palkia-O is, in my opinion, the best offensive Mon in the format. There are only 2 switch ins that have a B or higher rank, which are Grasaeus and spdef magearna. But those two are solved by tera fire. it also only has Zacian as it's only offensive check. It does have weaknesses but it's still incredibly strong

:Arceus-Fire: 3 - this Mon has gotten worse because Giratina is a pretty big check and Dondozo is a full on counter, but it's still brainless and stupid. I don't particularly enjoy it's presence but i do agree it's less good

:Arceus-Poison: 4 - I feel like people underestimate the sheet versatility of this Mon. Out of all of the Arceus, it can run all the sets it wants. Cosmic power? You got it. Defensive? Of course. DD? Sure chief. SD Espeed? Great choice. There are a ton of them and you can't really know what you're going to face until it makes a move, and sometimes that's a move too late. Yes, all three drops are counters and/or checks, but they don't check all of it's sets.

:gothitelle: :dugtrio: 3/1 - Trapping is stupid. But we haven't seen the full potential of these mons yet. However, shadow tag is never healthy, and as the time goes on, I'm certain that the new ways to run it will he discovered, along with my opinion of it changing, so for now it's a 3 because I haven't seen anything outside of it being great against stall but having the potential of just destroying more. Dugtrio, on the other hand, has a lot more skill and is less effective. Dugtrio is frail, can't switch in, doesn't have many targets, and can just be taken advantage of. I have not seen anyone succeed with dugtrio. My opinion is willing to change, but it could be nice to leave it on the tier

:Cyclizar: 1 - Banning shed tail is a move on the wrong direction in my opinion. Shed tail is part of what gives the format it's identity, and it allows Cyclazar to be playable and thus be a good spinner.

:Arceus-Electric: 3 - This one is very likely broken, but it was banned unfairly back in the day. I've been here since day one, and I've seen it used once in the whole tier's history. I don't remember much of the game itself, so i can't comment on how broken it was. I'm down to testing this, but I'm sure it'll be broken

:Arceus-Flying: 2 - This one is definitely broken. However, it was less broken than Arceus-Water and Arceus-Steel (no matter how much QB says otherwise). I'm not excited of this coming back, because this will be banned.

:Houndstone: 4 - I feel like killing sand was the wrong move, because sand wasn't the broken part of it. However, Fluffy sets were obnoxious. It was a blanket wall to any physical attacker, but you couldn't switch anything in because it'd take 80% of their HP. I had also seen Houndstone on trick room teams, which took advantage of the fact that it has a low speed, and the fact that it's bulk with fluffy was incredible. It was the right call, but i feel bad that we had to.

Comments - I've seen a moderate amount of people requesting a stored power ban. I'm not too sure if we should look into this or not, because Espathra would be killed as a result.
 
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I do want to point out that the standards for ban in this higher should be substantially higher than OU, as we're an Ubers spinoff where most of the people participate to play banned OU mons. Balancing is obviously necessary to keep the tier playable, but there should be leniency toward most of the broken threats unless they are on the verge of being uncompetitive.
 
:zacian: 2 - Strong sweeper but Dondozo walls and Arc-Fire and Poison are good matchups as well

:palkia-origin: 2 - strong breaker but no more powerful than anything else in the tier eg Dialga and the Arceuses, also walled by Blissey

I didn't vote on Arceus Fire or Poison because I only have faced each once. Probably keep them though if you want Zacian to remain balanced

:dugtrio: :gothitelle: 5 - Trapping is a strong contender for the worst mechanic Game Freak has ever introduced. No competitive meta should include it.

:orthworm: 3 - Shed Tail spam is very strong and I don't love what it enables but Roar distribution is good and splashable since Stored Power/virtually all setup is covered with that one move slot. If we were to see any tiering action I'd like to see an OU style approach where Cyclizar is looked at first, I don't have hugely high hopes about Orthworm being broken in a tier with Arceus + the roar dynamic makes Orthworm seriously ephemeral

:Arceus-Electric: 2 - Super Regieleki? No thanks

:Arceus-flying: 5 - ground immunity + knock absorber + arceus's movepool would be awesome to build with

:shaymin-sky: 1 - NO THANKS!

:Houndstone: don't immediately recall how the number scale worked on this one but i voted to keep the 300 BP ghost move banned

I also wrote in that Rillaboom is more annoying than anything included on the survey
 
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vesp

burning bright in a sodium haze
is a Contributor to Smogon
:zacian: 2
Honestly, the new drops have helped offsett the issue, and it's not very hard to deal with if your team is good.

:palkia-origin: 5
Obscene pokemon, it does a lot of damage and it's fairly fast, with few counters.

:arceus-fire: 3
Very strong offensive threat that is held back by the new drops, along with being very hazard weak.

:arceus-poison: 2
Incredibly versatile pokemon, you never know what set it's running. All the drops beat Arceus-Poison though, and it has a horrible offensive typing.

:cyclizar: 1
Not an issue in the meta as it stands, it's difficult to pass a substitute successfully unless your opponent spills Mountain Dew all over their keyboard.

:gothitelle:+ :dugtrio: 1
these mons aren't good. May be an issue in the future but currently trapping sucks.

:arceus-electric: 3
Probably a broken pokemon, but it never got a chance, it was qbd on speculation. With DLC2 we will likely see new grounds drop, but I'm on the fence about dropping it.

:arceus-flying: 1
If anyone has seen an old replay when this thing was allowed, they'd never free it. This pokemon is disgustingly overpowered.


:Shaymin-sky: 1
EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

:houndstone: :basculegion-f:
Don't want to see this return, super broken move.
 
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termnal

formerly Lpow12
:zacian: 4
Dog does dog things, its gotten a bit weaker with drops, especially dozo, but still rips through teams and if you don't have a tera left good luck. I have had some success with getting creative with scarfers to revenge it but its still the first thing I think about when building a team

:palkia-origin: 5
This thing is stupid, I shouldn't be tempted to run blissey on every team just to stop worrying about this mon. I have also seen scale shot mentioned on the forums and seen it on ladder a couple times and this mon with a speed boost is straight unanswerable a good 60% of the time. I have even been playing with tera fire to try and surprise zacian or mag trying to revenge.

:arceus-fire: 3
Giratina is a big pain for this mon, it doesn't always beat it 1v1 but forcing hazard chip with phasing and stopping the super free sweeps has slowed down this mons reign of the tier. I will say I have had a ton of success just saving the mon till last so it can't get phazed and the being able to beat teams relying on giratina to deal with it. Its not as free as before the drops but it will probably get better especially is palkia dissapears.

:arceus-poison: 2
Arceus is the best mon in the tier so I can't just give this mon a 1 but I think that even arc-psychic and arc-grass are stronger in the tier rn. This could also be cause I run roar dialga all the time and it blanks like 50% of the sets this mon runs but i've never had an issue playing against it

:gothitelle: :dugtrio: 3/1
Trapping has felt kinda weird, anytime I'm using goth its more a trick scarf or band onto the annoying mon than like the classic trap and kill something. Duggy just straight can't hang with the attacks in this meta and isn't strong enough to kill the relevant threats. Neither have felt like an issue but I'm sure in a week or two someone is gonna figure out the goth set that makes life hell for every other mon.

:cyclizar: 2
Honestly I feel like I'm spinning with this mon more than I am using shed tail. With the amount of phasing running around everyone knowing to be prepped for it this mon feels mid most times. If it gets in at the right time is can be devastating passing a sub to something but most times it struggles to get a shed tail off after t1 if you play a bit aggressive.

Unbans
Honestly all of them can stay gone. We for sure don't need more arceus forms and if I have to get haxxed by skymin ever again I might start buying copies of d/p/p just to burn them.

:houndstone:
Honestly I was never super bothered by last respects, at least on sand(and it kept my boy ttar a bit relevant), but like others have mentioned fluffy sets that were able to just sit of things and click the funny 200 bp ghost move were pretty awful to play against so I'm happy its gone.
 
WOO FREE CLOUT TEMPLATE POST WOO

:zacian: 4
Only really checked by Dondozo, who is brand new to the tier, Arceus-Fire, and Houndstone, who is now irrelevant. I don't think it's impossibly suffocating to be around, but it is the biggest presence in the metagame right now.

:palkia-origin: 3
If its Speed tier was any higher it'd be a 4 or 5, but right now there's a lot of stuff that can actually deal with it. Not much is really capable of switching into its Hydro Pump though.

:arceus-fire: 2
Fire is a pretty inconvenient type to be when you can't hold Boots, but being able to check Zacian is pretty cool. It's fine. Giratina helps with it a lot. Really strong setup sweeper, but we're not exactly lacking for those.

:arceus-poison: 2
Really strong, but not in a banworthy way. It's really good at shutting down a lot of popular meta stuff is all. You need to deal with it smartly, but it's far from impossible.

:gothitelle: :dugtrio: 1
I think trapping outside of ADV shouldn't be allowed in any non-Ubers tier. This is not Ubers. I don't think that's the philosophy most other people subscribe to though, so just looking at these two in a vacuum, they are pitifully easy to deal with, especially when like a third of the metagame has Roar.

:cyclizar: 1
Similar to above, honestly. Shed Tail isn't something I like, but the popularity of phasing moves in UUbers makes it way easier to handle than it was in OU.

:arceus-electric: :arceus-flying: 3?
Pretty sure I gave a 3 to both? I'd probably go back and give Flying a 4 though. I'd really wanna see what a good Flying type in this tier could do, especially with Arceus' movepool.

:shaymin-sky: 1
NO NOT THAT ONE
 
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oh yeah, as for the unbans, i don't remember exactly what i gave the arceus forms, but i'm pretty sure i voted flying lower than electric because i think the spikes immunity outweighs the rocks weakness. i voted somewhere in the middle on both of them, though, i remember that—i'm interested in seeing them retested but i don't have the experience using or fighting them to make an informed decision on their brokenness or balancedhood one way or the other

skymin gets a fucking 1 though. in fact, i'm gonna invent a new number that's lower than any other number that's ever been conceived of before and give it a symbol like ꧄ or something, and that's the vote i'm gonna give skymin. yeah, that's what i'll do. skymin gets a solid ꧄ out of 5
 
To the trapping discussion, I really don't think goth can be considered anywhere close to banworthy in this meta without a reliable way to boost its defense. Sure grassy seed (and electric seed too) are an ok replacement but 1. running a seed brings huge opportunity costs, missing out on leftys or a choice item to trick and 2. not being able to increase defense past one stage limits its ability to wall physically. Goth was banned back in gen 8 ubers cause of cosmic power, so unless it gets that back, I doubt it could be too broken.

and as for dugtrio, its complete ass. Dies way too easily while not doing enough damage. It doesn't have a small niche of trapping choiced electric types like it does to miradon in ubers, mostly cause there aren't many relevant electric types in the tier it can trap. Unless it gets a major buff in the dlc, I doubt it will ever be broken.
 
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IntoTheSubiiverse

Banned deucer.
Houndstone @ Metronome
Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Last Respects
- Play Rough
- Substitute
- Disable

Sandy Shocks @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Earth Power

Dragapult @ Light Clay
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Curse
- Thunder Wave

Magearna @ Red Card
Ability: Soul-Heart
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power

Arceus-Poison @ Toxic Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

Hippopotas @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 1
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 132 HP / 52 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Yawn
- Sandstorm
- Double-Edge


Sack all your mons + Tera ghost houndstone is really op, gear can try to go for game behind screens with low risk because worst case you can just get stronger last respects
 
Houndstone @ Metronome
Ability: Sand Rush
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Last Respects
- Play Rough
- Substitute
- Disable

Sandy Shocks @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave
- Earth Power

Dragapult @ Light Clay
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Curse
- Thunder Wave

Magearna @ Red Card
Ability: Soul-Heart
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power

Arceus-Poison @ Toxic Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

Hippopotas @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 1
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 132 HP / 52 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Yawn
- Sandstorm
- Double-Edge


Sack all your mons + Tera ghost houndstone is really op, gear can try to go for game behind screens with low risk because worst case you can just get stronger last respects
12991EF8-09DD-4449-A733-5EE15B568FDC.jpeg
 

TTK

Webtoon Character
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
WOO FREE CLOUT TEMPLATE POST WOO

:zacian: 4
Only really checked by Dondozo, who is brand new to the tier, Arceus-Fire, and Houndstone, who is now irrelevant. I don't think it's impossibly suffocating to be around, but it is the biggest presence in the metagame right now.

:palkia-origin: 3
If its Speed tier was any higher it'd be a 4 or 5, but right now there's a lot of stuff that can actually deal with it. Not much is really capable of switching into its Hydro Pump though.

:arceus-fire: 2
Fire is a pretty inconvenient type to be when you can't hold Boots, but being able to check Zacian is pretty cool. It's fine. Giratina helps with it a lot. Really strong setup sweeper, but we're not exactly lacking for those.

:arceus-poison: 2
Really strong, but not in a banworthy way. It's really good at shutting down a lot of popular meta stuff is all. You need to deal with it smartly, but it's far from impossible.

:gothitelle: :dugtrio: 1
I think trapping outside of ADV shouldn't be allowed in any non-Ubers tier. This is not Ubers. I don't think that's the philosophy most other people subscribe to though, so just looking at these two in a vacuum, they are pitifully easy to deal with, especially when like a third of the metagame has Roar.

:cyclizar: 1
Similar to above, honestly. Shed Tail isn't something I like, but the popularity of phasing moves in UUbers makes it way easier to handle than it was in OU.

:arceus-electric: :arceus-flying: 3?
Pretty sure I gave a 3 to both? I'd probably go back and give Flying a 4 though. I'd really wanna see what a good Flying type in this tier could do, especially with Arceus' movepool.

:shaymin-sky: 1
NO NOT THAT ONE
Regarding the point on Palkia-Origin, what "a lot of stuff" actually deal with it? Because it's quite the opposite. Not a lot of stuff can actually deal with it and that's why it's such a polarising mon in the first place. If we go over Palkia-O's defensive counterplay, its only counter is AV Azumarill (fun mon also checks more special attackers read my VR post). Every other "switchin" whether that's Spdef Magearna or Spdef Dialga don't take hits from it well at all, the former more than the latter but Dialga has no recovery and if Palkia-O is behind a sub, it's attacking you twice. Even Blissey is not safe if Palkia-O is running Scale Shot. On the offensive side, there's a few mons that can outspeed it naturally like :zacian:, :zamazenta-crowned:, :dragapult:, :cyclizar: and :spectrier: but then again, none of them like switching into Palkia. You also have scarfers like :landorus: and :chi-yu: but they need Palkia sufficiently damaged to revenge kill or they just die. Palkia-Origin frankly makes an unhealthy dynamic in this tier where it comes in on anything slower than it, whether they're passive (:giratina:) or it uses its typing to switch into a threat (:palafin-hero:) it will just Substitute on the incoming switchin and get off a free attack and it deals so much damage because there's only 2 safe switchins in the tier. Honestly, if Zacian wasn't in the tier, Palkia-O would just reign free.


Moving on to my thoughts on Zacian, I think we're adapting to this pokemon and the drops certainly contribute to that. :dondozo:, :magearna:, :arceus-poison:, :arceus-fire:, :corviknight: and :zamazenta-crowned: are all examples of common and good pokemon that can stifle Zacian in its tracks and all of them collectively can fit on all sorts of archetypes. Zacian is also tera reliant to beat some of those like using Tera Ground on :arceus-poison: and :arceus-fire: but that leaves it open to being revenge killed by common priority from :rillaboom: and :palafin-hero:. Not to mention our best scarfers can revenge it if it just has a bit of chip damage (252+ SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian: 285-336 (87.6 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO)


Do not unban :shaymin-sky:, :arceus-electric: or :arceus-flying: and ye, I believe :palkia-origin: to be the only questionable pokemon in the format at this current time.
 

Leo Justice

Ubers UU leader
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Regarding the point on Palkia-Origin, what "a lot of stuff" actually deal with it? Because it's quite the opposite. Not a lot of stuff can actually deal with it and that's why it's such a polarising mon in the first place. If we go over Palkia-O's defensive counterplay, its only counter is AV Azumarill (fun mon also checks more special attackers read my VR post). Every other "switchin" whether that's Spdef Magearna or Spdef Dialga don't take hits from it well at all, the former more than the latter but Dialga has no recovery and if Palkia-O is behind a sub, it's attacking you twice. Even Blissey is not safe if Palkia-O is running Scale Shot. On the offensive side, there's a few mons that can outspeed it naturally like :zacian:, :zamazenta-crowned:, :dragapult:, :cyclizar: and :spectrier: but then again, none of them like switching into Palkia. You also have scarfers like :landorus: and :chi-yu: but they need Palkia sufficiently damaged to revenge kill or they just die. Palkia-Origin frankly makes an unhealthy dynamic in this tier where it comes in on anything slower than it, whether they're passive (:giratina:) or it uses its typing to switch into a threat (:palafin-hero:) it will just Substitute on the incoming switchin and get off a free attack and it deals so much damage because there's only 2 safe switchins in the tier. Honestly, if Zacian wasn't in the tier, Palkia-O would just reign free.
I do want to add that :Arceus-Grass: tanks its hits pretty well with around 152~ Spdef Ivs and a calm nature, allowing it to be 3hkod by Fire Blast. Of course, tera fire does solve this, but it is still worth noting as a good check
Blissey is safe against scale shot, as it'd need to get more than 2 5 hits on a row to actually break through.
4 Atk Lustrous Globe Palkia-Origin Scale Shot (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 285-335 (43.7 - 51.3%) -- approx. 5.1% chance to 2HKO
But yeah, the only B or higher rated checks to Palkia-O are Magearna and Grasseus, because Dialga doesn't really check it. Blissey is a full counter but I don't think Blissey should be used as an argument considering it is the most Spdef bulky mon in the entire game and will always counter almost every special attacker.
Additionally, that was my reason for rejecting the idea of suspecting or banning Zacian on the first place. Palkia-O seems to be a mon thats only counterplay is really offensive, and it can get switch ins against a lot of the tier due to its fantastic defensive typing.
 

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